I recently read a book titled “The Grammarians”. I’m about to discuss why this book has me thinking, so there are bound to be spoilers. Spoilers is probably not the optimum word as the book really has no plot, so I wouldn’t be spoiling much….

In a nutshell, the book is about two sisters who share a love for words and grammar. One sister ends up writing a grammar column for a major newspaper, while the other one is a teacher…until she isn’t. At one point, the teacher begins research basically stating that grammar is elitist.

You get where I’m going with this?

Is there a case to be made that proper grammar is elitest?

I realize grammar is “the rules” but in a world where rules seem to be “for someone else”, that the rules which we hold written etiquette are outdated?

For the moment let’s dispense with punctuation rules. We all know that we need a certain amount of punctuation to make sure intent is clear. Let’s eat Grandma is way different than Let’s eat, Grandma. So basic, clarifying punctuation is necessary.

Does it matter if your participles dangle?

You know I play by my own grammar rules. I’m sure there are people who will not read my blog because of that. I don’t really care: not in a snobbish way, but in a “I write for me” way. As one of my IRL friends states, “When I read your blog, I picture you. You write exactly as you sound when we’re having a conversation.” Honestly- that is my goal. I see blogging as a conversation tool- I feel the point is to communicate with one another. When I’m speaking to my someone, I want the ideas to matter, the meat of what I’m saying. I want to have fun with words, deliver them in a fresh and playful way. To be a slave to the rules of grammar would take away the fun…

But back to the main point.

If you read/listen to someone with poor grammar, do you make a snap judgement about what sort of person they are? Their education? Their socioeconomic status? Their intelligence?

Do you think I’m uneducated because I am not a grammarian? Poor? Slovenly?

Do you judge the grammar of all equally, or are you more harsh with some groups?

Are you a grammar snob?

When my daughter was in public school she was obviously taught to write. And in those beginning days, kids were told to just put something on the page. Spelling didn’t matter. Punctuation didn’t matter. Grammar wasn’t even a thought. The idea was to get them excited about writing their ideas down on the page. As she went through school, grammar was still secondary. Of course, she copiously studied the rules of grammar for standardized tests: but that was all about the score.

SAT.

ACT.

The mark of whether or not you get into college.

Recently, there was a thought that there should be a socio economic indicator to the standardized testing process, because those of a lower economic class generally do not do as well on these tests. Was this a thinly veiled way of saying that grammar is a tool of the upper middle classes?

Some schools have dispensed with standardized test requirements. The mark of intelligence does not lie in a number. I firmly believe this. But as the ELA part of the test is more difficult, largely due to the grammar component, are these colleges inadvertently saying that grammar doesn’t matter?

Does equality mean we all need to speak in the same vernacular?

Are the rules of grammar, as they stand now, archaic?

Discuss.

 

93 thoughts on “Grammar- Art Thou Elitist?

  1. This is a regular thing in our home. My wife constantly misuses “good” and “well” when she speaks along with the occasional pronoun mangling. When I correct she gives me that Look of sneer and contempt. Yet, when it’s time for her to write an important letter or email, she calls me for help. I guess one has to pick his/her battles and regularly turn the other cheek. – Marty

    Liked by 4 people

  2. I think it really depends on what you’re writing and who the audience is. I don’t think it’s important to be particular when you’re communicating with friends (blogging). In fact I quite like the variety of authors ‘voices’ in their posts. I must confess to getting a bit snobby about mistakes on things like adverts, posters or official letters etc. I get particularly narked by apostrophes before ‘s’ in plurals!! Takes me back to my teaching days I guess 😂.

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  3. If you are writing in a journal or a blog, some mistakes with grammar might be part of your vernacular. It reveals your location, and many clues about your background. If you are writing for a college class, I do endorse using standard English. Capitalize the “I.” Use the apostrophes, reread before sending. If you are blogging, and use dialogue with mistakes, many won’t notice but I guarantee the instructor will with an academic paper.

    Liked by 3 people

  4. True story: I chaperoned an eighth-grade field trip at my son’s middle school. I overheard his English teach say, “I would of went.” The kicker: she taught in the so-called “Gifted and Talented” program. She was very young, and clearly had never been taught grammar. Nevertheless, she earned her teaching credential and a spot at a supposedly “good” school. This is not an isolated example. Called in to substitute teach in the middle of the morning, and arrived to find the principal conducting the “Daily Oral Language” drill with the students (a quick grammar and spelling exercise).

    I took over, and saw that the principal had told the students that the answer to “____ and I rented an apartment” was “Her and I rented an apartment.” “Oh, let’s fix that,” I said casually, and changed it on the overhead. The class protested mightily. “Ms. Principal told us the answer!” I glossed it over without saying anything negative about the principal.

    Grammar isn’t dead, but badly wounded. But there is hope! Benjamin Dreyer’s English was on the NYT best-seller list. And if grammar gives you hives, read “Grammar Snobs Are Great Big Meanies.” Author June Casagrande is not only brilliant, but she also manages to make lessons on grammar, punctuation, and style hilarious.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. 😉 my daughter writes fir her school paper. When she submits her work, there are three people who look at it. Fact check, grammar, style. Last week the fact checker corrected something grammatical after the grammar person had approved it. So yeah…..

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      1. I agree that for a blog or a fictional story it is ok for it to be written as people speak. However, for any official document or more formal written communication I believe there should be standard grammar. Grammar rules can change with time but people who are writing something more formal should try to adhere to current rules.

        Liked by 1 person

  5. Yay for Grammar! And yea for grammar. Knowing the fundamentals of grammar helps you communicate clearly. My teachers were sticklers for grammar from fourth grade on. They weren’t teaching for the ACT; they wanted us to be able to communicate effectively whether it was through speech or writing, and knowing proper grammar was part of that. Do we always need to pay attention to grammatical rules? No. Most of our communication is informal. I don’t need to triple check my grammar when I’m texting my sister. If I am writing for a formal event or in a business setting, however, I feel that my knowledge of grammar helps me to present myself as professionally as possible.

    Do I judge people for using improper grammar? Usually not. Except for all those Christmas cards from The Smith’s.

    Liked by 3 people

    1. 😉 I know I eye roll when I see a sign in a store that is clearly not even close to being grammatically correct (worse than this sentence) but I wonder if I’m being snobby….

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  6. I’ve always thought, if every writer used perfect or the same grammar rules where would stories get their personality from. I struggle with this, being I have a novel published. I’m torn whether my blog posts should be casual like I am in personal conversations. This is what I would prefer. Yet, professionals say your blog should set an example of your writing style. It should be a place to practice good grammar. I’m searching for a style somewhere between these.
    I would never judge a blog by its grammar alone. I feel spelling, basic punctuation and some grammar rules are important, but I enjoy reading more causally written posts.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. I much prefer the casual ones. They’re more interesting and I feel they really do give me a picture of the writer. That’s important to me. And I agree, shouldn’t individuality matter when writing, as long as the point is clear?

      Liked by 2 people

  7. In real life I write just as I speak, which is an odd mix of precise (some might even say archaic) words likely intermixed with some poor grammar. It is what it is. I’ve had more comments from folks on the word choices than attempts to correct my grammar rule breaking.
    Going back to college later in life and having to confront grammar and writing rules
    when completing research was a chore. I can do it if I have to, but like you, as long as I am understood then I’m happy.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. And, because I was so focused on myself… Am I a grammar snob when it comes to others? I do notice things, but would never correct someone unless it’s one of my kids and I want to irritate them 😉

      Liked by 1 person

      1. I rarely correct grammar when it’s spoken. I did put a big “comma” sign over my daughters desk because there was a point in middle schools where she thought they were optional….

        Liked by 2 people

  8. I typically like the author, I read Sisterland and was completely hung over by that book for days after I finished it. I read some other ones of hers too, the American Wife on (is that what it was called?)…

    Anyway I put this one on hold through the ebook library and will read it and get back to you. May take some time though…

    Liked by 1 person

  9. I’m a spelling snob. I grind my teeth to nubs over posts littered with spelling errors. I can’t help it. I can’t help it anymore than people seemingly can’t help being unable to spell. It’s a pet peeve. Grammar as far as punctuation, though? I have no idea how close I am to right, most of the time. I do the best I can. At the end of the day, I don’t worry too much, though. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. 🙂

    Liked by 2 people

  10. Grammar matters. Books still need to be impeccably edited. The textbooks our children and grandchildren read must be grammatically perfect so that they are taught properly. Essays still need to be taught and written correctly. That doesn’t mean we can’t loosen our structure as society becomes more relaxed.
    Blogs are what I call lazy writing. (Conversations with friends). I too write my blog as if I were speaking. But bad grammar? There’s a difference between lazy grammar and poor grammar. We all get lazy. It’s become a modern way of writing on social media.
    But nothing is more of a turn off than ignorance.And ignorant grammar is like nails on a chalk board.

    Grammar rules do change. Rules are less stuffy these day. I know I personally could never have married a man who spoke poorly. Both my husbands were well educated and could carry on a conversation without glaring grammar errors. I went out with a great looking guy once and barely made it through dinner. I couldn’t stand his constant double negatives and misuse of the English Language. It bugged me. Maybe I’m shallow but to me being well spoken and articulate is more important than how a man dresses. I love language so I care how it spoken and how it is written. To me good writing is an art form so good grammar will always win out. Eloquent grammar may slowly be dying, but good grammar will outlive us all!

    Liked by 2 people

      1. Yes, LA I hold teachers to higher standards. But, they too, in relaxed company, can let up on their language skills. Just not the the very basics as was used as an example in one your followers posts. (Personally, I wouldn’t want that teacher to teach my children). Nor would I hire an attorney who sounded like a mob boss or a use an oncologist who couldn’t string a sentence together properly. Bad grammar sends a weird message. It says that individual never bothered to learn good English grammar. I’m not saying the King’s English. Just the basics. I’m lazy with my caps, periods, parentheses when I type on my phone or iPad or unless I know my work is being formally published. So, to me social media is casual writing. It’s friendly and fun. Nobody judges anyone. That’s what’s so great about it.
        However,I do get very annoyed when I buy a novel and the grammar or spelling wasn’t edited properly. Oftentimes poor grammar can ruin a book for me. That’s another story. Writing is their craft and the should perfect it if they are charging for it.

        BTW, I do not judge or hold people I care about. AND I don’t judge or hold anything against someone foreign who misuses the language.I live in south Florida and have accidentally goofed on my tenses when trying to communicate in Spanish. So I have no problem with errors in language. I think that when I pay a professional for something I expect an excellent product. So, yes. I do have higher expectations for certain people.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. I started to think about this whole topic when I read the book “The Grammarians”. The author talks about how are everyday parlance is more significant than the more grammatical iterations. It made me think about a tv commercial I’d recently seen. In the commercial the narrator is talking about a new home show, and he states something along the lines of ‘don’t let my accent (Brooklyn) stop you from watching this show’. And it reminded me of how people often judge my husband who has two masters degrees and was a summa graduate, but still has a bit of Brooklyn in him….

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  11. I think grammar, to an extent is important. More so, is spelling and proper usage. I think as writers, we have learned that a conversational tone is superior. I think so too. It’s a more fluid way of communicating. And we like to break the rigid rules to emphasize pieces of the conversation, or allow the reader to have pauses and breaks. But I think it’s extremely important to learn proper grammar, if for nothing else, the work world. The working world produces reports, memorandum, etc. for business purposes and it should be correct. Texting language ain’t going to cut it for sure. U R nt vy bright if U try to communicate this way in business. LOL. It’s not a matter of being snobbish in the business world. It’s a matter of credibility.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Ok. I have a real life scenario. My husband was looking to hire someone years ago (he’s an accountant type) he would not interview anyone who had obvious errors on their resume. One of his friends asked why that mattered…it was all about numbers. What’s your take?

      Liked by 1 person

      1. I’m not sure what your husband faced in terms of the number of applicants, but I was on the hiring team at one of my jobs and we literally had so many applicants we were looking for reasons to discard resumes – one typo and they hit the trash. But if it was down to quality applicants, I wouldn’t let grammar or a typo sway me – they’d get an interview

        Liked by 1 person

      2. I don’t think he had that many resumes, maybe 20. His rationale was that his hire would have to speak at meetings and explain things to higher ups via email, he wanted them to sound good

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      3. I get his rationale. If you’re in a position requiring accuracy, and in my case it was the law, where communication, both written and verbal, had to be exact, typos and bad grammar can really hurt your credibility. Also, it really is a writing sample. If a person hasn’t taken the time to check their resume, are they going to be thorough in their work product

        Liked by 1 person

      4. My hubby has done this, but his reasoning is that he is looking at people applying for a software QA position and if they can’t bother to do a little quality checking of their resume, what are they going to do with code.

        Liked by 1 person

      5. As a former recruiter, one of my biggest pet peeves was hiring managers who treated a resume like the holy grail and completely ignored any other insights on the candidate or additional background information. That being said, for a position that involves attention to detail, such as in accounting, I definitely would be concerned with someone who missed errors on their resume or didn’t appear to even bother to spellcheck.

        Liked by 1 person

      6. My husband works for a bank. They often have to present information to senior management. Clear concise speaking skills are a must. If the resume isn’t clear and concise, he can’t imagine someone would e able to adequately get their point across when being questioned.

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  12. Both of my children attended public school with mixed socioeconomic students. Even my underperforming child learned good basic grammar. I think it is important to have the basics, but the extras to me, are simply extra. I think some misuses are regional rather than an education issue.

    Liked by 1 person

  13. I read something not too long ago that talked about what not to do in writing and one piece in particular sort of jumped out at me as bothersome. It talked about certain language usage that you should never do because it makes you sound uneducated. On a certain level, I understood what they were saying, but the more I thought about it, the more it bothered me and felt very elitist and judgemental. The usage they were referring to is a very specific way of speaking for certain areas of the US. It is so common that most people that use that type of phrasing use it without thought even if they have gone through higher levels of education. It is also still technically correct phrasing, but considered a less refined way of phrasing. Is everyone from that region then considered uneducated because they use the common dialect of their area? It is almost like making a judgement about someone’s educational level based on their accent.

    The way we use language changes, sometimes drastically over short periods of time. I agree that there are certain standards that should be met to be considered appropriate for different levels of communication (no text speak in a professional document kind of thing), but there are also a lot of areas that aren’t well defined because they have been acceptably used in different ways. When it gets to the point where you nitpick at those areas and say “this makes you look uneducated” then you are probably being an elitist. Besides, not everyone that is well educated did well in their language classes. Basic math is probably my weakest area (please do not ever throw a basic math question at me and expect me to rattle off the answer), but I can still solve complex equations and manipulate computer code when necessary. Does that make me uneducated or less intelligent? No. It just means that isn’t my main area of expertise.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. I like your thinking, and it’s exactly what made me start thinking about this topic. Is it elitist to assume someone is uncouth, poor or uneducated because they speak with a sort of local vernacular? Should southerners mock northerners because they use different phrase or patterns of speech? While I appreciate what grammar does, and understand that we need it (which is debatable because no one seems to learn it anymore) how tough should we be on the actual rules?

      Liked by 1 person

      1. I do think that it depends on the situation. In certain situations it should matter. Technical and legal documents need to be completely accurate for a number of reasons. Professional communication should be professional. When it comes to writing and literature… I think that how you write, how you phrase things, word choices, all of it is part of style and voice. That said, I still don’t want to read an unedited book, but that is more than just spelling, punctuation and grammar.

        Liked by 1 person

  14. I don’t think I’m a snob about it but I’m like After the Party and am bothered by spelling errors. Punctuation, as in should there be a comma here or a semicolon there, I have trouble with but I don’t worry so much about that when I am writing my blog. I have a habit of saying “close the light” instead of “turn off the light” and call the garage the basement even though my husband says there are no stairs so it can’t be a basement. It grates on his nerves if he hears people say “like” or “you know” when they are talking on TV (think athletes answering the stupid questions reporters ask them after the game). He’s even gone so far as to count how many times they say it (he has a bit of OCD we’ve decided). He does think they are uneducated if they speak that way. I think it is just a nervous thing you do when you are pumped up from winning a game and not used to talking on TV. With programs like Grammerly etc., I do think that perhaps it is not being taught in schools as much, gone the way of cursive writing. 😦

    Liked by 1 person

    1. My daughter was given rudimentary grammar during school. She studied it for entrance exams, and does use Grammarly as a check before she submits things. I’m more interested in the content of peoples words, as opposed to how correct it is.

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  15. I think grammar is important. At least I do not like to read sentences such as, “I go to the store now.” (I’m pondering if I should have put a comma before the quotation marks lol.) At some point we all need to learn to speak and write at least one language fluently and correctly. I have never found anything wrong with your grammar. I think you have a wonderful style of writing. I love your dry sense of humor. I enjoy reading your blog. That said, lol, I did not quite understand this paragraph 🙂 “I realize grammar is “the rules” but in a world where rules seem to be “for someone else”, that the rules which we hold written etiquette are outdated?”

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Think of it like this. Last week I questioned whether asking a parents permission to wed their daughter is outdated. There was a point where this was adhered to, as if it was a code of conduct for certain classes. Now it seems archaic to many. Is sticking to all the rules of grammar outmoded?

      Like

      1. Oh I see … hmm … I guess I think it depends on the circumstances. When writing a blog, or a comment, or a note to a friend, I think it’s okay to not be 100% grammatically correct. Just like this comment is not grammatically correct lol. But I think when one is writing things such as a business letter, a work document, or a college application essay, being grammatically correct is not outmoded.

        Liked by 1 person

  16. I have a double standard. I want my writing to be perfect, but I read for content. Yes, I stumble over bad grammar, but I want to know the person behind the words. It’s like looking at a beautiful mountain scene and blocking out the ugly wires strung across the road.

    Liked by 2 people

  17. I’m a former middle school English teacher. You’ve seen my total dismissal of the rules of grammar. I think we have to know them so we can break them. Now, when I hear blatantly poor grammar (I seen. They was.) I cringe. But I’ve also come to realize that poor grammar isn’t an indicator of intelligence. It’s more a lack of exposure to the rules.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. I like what you said there…lack of exposure to the rules. That’s where I was going with elitist….do we judge bad grammar too harshly because we don’t know someone life story

      Liked by 1 person

  18. I’ll admit to being a bit of a grammar snob when it comes to writing. In speaking, fiction, and informal blogs, it doesn’t concern me as much. It’s about communicating clearly and avoiding misunderstanding.

    Liked by 1 person

  19. Oh I hate it when my participles dangle 🙂 I will admit that I don’t understand grammar, never have. I know you need a full stop to stop the words falling of the page. (Sorry I used to get into so much trouble for that one in school, teacher why do we use full stops, me to stop the words… you get the idea). For me as long as the sentence makes sense, (and sometimes even if it doesn’t it gives the brain a work out trying to workout what it is supposed to mean), I really don’t care.

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  20. I was never taught the basics of English grammar, as school attendance during those keys years was disrupted by civil disturbance & civil war. To this day, I opt out of discussions about the specifics. But I’m still a bit of a pedant, I’m afraid. I don’t have a problem reading less than perfect grammar and generally read right past it, so long as what’s being said is interesting and/or engaging (Peter Carey’s True History of the Kelly Gang being a good example). That said, I do think writing well is important and spent time correcting my daughter’s grammar during school, for her teachers didn’t have time to address it. When writing her thesis, she thanked me for being a PITA about it 🙂 In essence, I believe clarity of speech & writing should be the aim of us all, for fear we’ll – one day – be expected to sign documents composed entirely of acronyms and text speak. 🙂

    As for judging another person on how they speak or write – I have done. When returning to the dating world in my fifties, I noticed that a lack of eloquence in speech & writing tended to signify a lack of compatibility. But that’s a matter of personal taste and not my judging anyone as inferior or ignorant, just not right for me.

    Liked by 1 person

  21. I admit I’m a bit of a grammar nerd. (I even blogged about it.). But my own grammar isn’t always perfect. I cringe when I hear myself say something incorrectly. I know intelligent people who occasionally use bad grammar and while I notice it, I don’t think less of them. Grammar and spelling have always been easy for me so I do notice it. I love how the British talk. Probably too much Downton Abbey this past month. 😉

    Liked by 1 person

  22. You always raise such interesting points! On the one hand, I do think a certain amount of grammar (and certainly punctuation) is necessary for a complete understanding of the written and spoken word. And on a personal level, I really hope humanity is never reduced to writing everything in “text.” You know, “Can U B at my Howz 2day?” Ughh…..
    On the other hand, I have relatives who live in downstate Missouri, and their manner of speaking is very different from the kind of grammar that is taught at school. But I also know they are very intelligent people, and there is also a pleasing rhythm to their conversations.
    So I have to weigh into this discussion with: I’m not quite sure!!!

    Liked by 1 person

  23. Yes. I am a bit of a grammar snob. It was drilled into me through my seven English classes in business classes, of all places. Before that, I wasn’t horrible at grammar, but I also didn’t understand much of it. I was a slacker in high school. So when I decided to go back to school via business college when I was 20, certain grammar rules were embedded into my brain, and considering the way the teachers graded you–automatic F for comma splices–you didn’t easily forget! Doesn’t mean I don’t make mistakes sometimes, though. 🙂 Anyhow, the lessons have come in handy for my writing over the years, and I do appreciate all I learned! 😀

    Liked by 1 person

    1. I agree that we need a certain amount of grammar….but does who or whom really take away from something someone has written? I just wonder how hard we hold to some if the rules

      Liked by 1 person

      1. I think it depends on the person. It’s a personal issue. For instance, if I’m trying to read a novel, and it has more than a couple of typos, or it’s missing a bunch of commas, these take me out of the story. Can’t help it. It’s embedded in me. I do hold hard to certain rules. Others, not quite so much. But I’ve literally gotten out a pencil and added commas where I thought they belonged while reading. lol And I notice a lot of these things and inconsistencies in stories because of years of critiquing people’s work. It’s like my job or something! In any case, as I said, some people aren’t bothered by that and some are. 🙂

        Liked by 1 person

  24. Oh! As to your question: “If you read/listen to someone with poor grammar, do you make a snap judgement about what sort of person they are? Their education? Their socioeconomic status? Their intelligence?” I have a tendency to correct them in my head. lol

    Liked by 1 person

  25. Grammar is elitist; however, language in general is. So, this answer is really for this post and the one about dialect/accents. Linguists have proven that even language we perceive as classless (black English) actually has rules, so one cannot pretend to know how to speak this language, and if one were to try, then s/he/they would immediately be seen as a fraud. Colleges, no matter if they remove the standardized test component, still largely value “standard” English and most are expected to speak it as a way to show s/he/they are at a certain (elitist) level.

    Use of “proper” grammar is seen as intelligent; anything else is seen as something else. This includes dialect/accents, like you mentioned about your husband in the other post.

    I guess what I’m saying is that we all language is rule bound, but we’ve turned it into another way to stereotype individuals and make them feel bad/less than, kind of like having an iPhone 😉

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Exactly where I was going this week. People think they don’t judge, but they do….just like I’m judging the people who think they don’t judge…while I get there are rules so you can be understood, where is the line for how we dictate how someone “should” speak?

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  26. I noticed the other day, that Microsoft word had a grammar check so I decided to try it on my current writing project and was very surprised with the suggested suggestions. Don’t get me wrong they were correct but I was surprised I had made them. English was my best subject and I received wonderful grades, but maybe I have become lazy. I will say that out of the over 100 pages I had only 10 grammar checks and to be honest 2 of them I ignored because it was in dialogue so I figured that it was okay. Schools don’t teach it as much as they used to and I find it a shame as I think it is important to know even if it isn’t they way we speak or converse.

    Liked by 1 person

      1. My daughter had grammar, but she didn’t….she learned the very basics. And judging by the fact that her college has a writing requirement, and she’s top of the class, I’d say the problem is universal

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  27. Well, I think grammar is important, and really enjoy learning about it. But the only time it really bothers me is when people use hypercorrection (which is when people make up stupid and incorrect grammar rules to make themselves sound smarter/solve a problem that doesn’t exist). Otherwise, I think context is important- if someone writes with poor grammar on the internet, I’m much less likely to be bothered by it.

    Liked by 1 person

  28. I like your blog and the way you write! So to me, it’s grammatically correct and enjoyable! I think there’s a time and place for extreme grammar rules being enforced, but for blogging? Unless there are glaring errors that I can’t get over, I love to read how people write because of the content and the sharing of the subject matter!

    Liked by 1 person

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